HBO Max’s “Our Flag Means Death” is loosely based on real life pirate Stede Bonnet (played by Rhys Darby) during his time at the sea in 1717. During the duration spent at stealing commercial ships, he sailed alongside the fearsome Captain Blackbeard (played by Taika Waititi, who’s also the executive producer here), and then attempted to kill him.
Having worked together, Taika Waititi delves into why it was so easy to work alongside Rhys Darby and how Blackbeard is similar to him. During the interview, the 46-year-old New Zealand filmmaker-actor also discussed whether comics are generally competitive with each other on set. Scroll down to read more.
Q: Pirates and buccaneering must be a great genre to have some fun…
Taika Waititi: Yes, and I didn’t really know anything about the early 1700s. I tend to lump all those centuries together with men wearing tights and swashbuckling. So, it was really interesting to see what was going on, especially with the wardrobe and the empires’ clutching of all the oceans. Where this is set is such a melting pot of cultures and people, all these strays trying to find their way in the world. Just seeing that stuff come to life was a really big thing for me. I was not a huge pirate fan growing up. I tended to associate them with Halloween costumes and silly things that kids would be into. Then “Pirates of the Caribbean” came along and tried to make pirates cool and sexy but that felt like a fantasy world. When this came about, I was really excited by showing what happens in the downtime, when you’re not swashbuckling and you’re not raiding ships. That stuff is really interesting to me. It was the same with my vampire film, “What We Do in the Shadows”, the idea of seeing a real slice of life for vampires, and the same thing applied here. We wanted to do this ‘workplace comedy’ idea where you’re seeing what pirates get up to when they’re not pirating.
Q: How important was it to sidestep the clichés and stereotypes sometimes associated with pirates?
TW: Very. I think this world is ridiculous enough without adding parrots and all those clichés. It would have tipped it over and it would have become more of a sketch.
What I love about this is that it is a fully formed story with fleshed-out characters that all have arcs. It is hilarious but there are some great dramatic moments, and it’s about something: the idea of the midlife crisis and what happens to people when they go, ‘Is this it? I had dreams. Is this what I can expect from my one life?’ I think everyone has those feelings although we’re not brave enough to actually go out and be a pirate, or leave our families, or to do the stuff Stede has done. We’re experiencing what it might be like to go out and do that. The themes are important. It is one of things that attracted me to the show — the idea that he’s gone out and is reaching for this dream he’s had his whole life, of being an adventurer. But it comes at a cost. There’s a heavy price to pay if you want to be a pirate. There’s death every day and you’re stuck on a boat in the middle of nowhere wondering where your next meal is going to come
from.
Q: You follow the big events from Stede Bonnet’s real life, which must have been great for the writing and crafting of the show…
TW: It is way better than making it up. If you were to make it up it could be too preposterous but there’s enough in there for you to realise he went to sea, wasn’t very good at it, became kind of good at it and then became homesick. There’s something about that which really resonated with me, maybe because I’m in my 40s now!
Q: What prompted you to take on a performance role as Blackbeard alongside the directing and executive producing?
TW: This is one of the rare occasions where I didn’t put myself in my own thing; someone else asked me to do it. David Jenkins wrote Blackbeard with me in mind and, at first, I was just too busy to do it. But with some shuffling of schedules, we were able to do it, which was great because I really wanted to play the role. I would have been really bummed out if I had missed out on it. So, I was Blackbeard by day and then was editing “Thor” by night and doing various other things. I was trying to work from set with the shaggy hair and the beard. It was a management nightmare, but we pulled it off and it was probably one of my favourite roles that I’ve played because it’s something I didn’t have to write so I could bring a lot of myself to it. I didn’t do any research on Blackbeard. I went on Wikipedia and realised that no one really knows anything about him. We’re not sure that Edward Teach was actually his real name; he may have had other names. That gave me the freedom to do whatever I wanted and to use my own accent. And the costume was all leather, like “Mad Max”, and it looks cool. I felt like a grizzled biker although it was uncomfortable being in that hot leather all day. It made me grumpy sometimes, being hot and uncomfortable with the hair and the beard, having someone else’s hair in my mouth! Maybe that’s what the character needed to help me get to that grumpy state.
Q: You’ve known Rhys Darby for a long time but this must be the most time you’ve spent opposite him on screen…
TW: It is. We did “What We Do in the Shadows”, with the pack of vampires and a pack of werewolves. We’ve done a bit of stuff on sketch shows together back in New Zealand, but this is the most we’ve done together. The real meat of it is this relationship our characters have, and it is great. We are both from comedy backgrounds and we know how each other works but we were really determined to embrace the dramatic scenes and to try and act. We supported each other throughout the shoot. I’m so comfortable in comedic roles but with dramatic roles you wonder if you’re doing well. You know if you’re good with comedy because people laugh. But with a drama you have no gauge. I guess you’re successful if people don’t laugh!
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Q: Was it difficult to find the right tone for your performance? He has to be cool and tough but also funny and vulnerable at times and a fish out of water…
TW: It wasn’t a huge challenge to get to that place because all my roles basically are based on versions of me, or someone close to me. I felt the same frustrations; I grew up poor and wanted to see what life was like on the other side of the tracks. Now I do rub shoulders with people in this world of having money and success, which is the same trajectory that Blackbeard is having. He does end up hanging out in high society but is always reminded of where he comes from and what he is and has a resentment towards the world. I definitely felt that in my youth, resentment towards the rich and towards the colonial powers who oppressed my people. I have had a chip on my shoulder and it’s always there. Even now, I question myself: should I have become a filmmaker? I have had a great career but every single human questions whether he or she would have been happier doing something else. And that’s what is happening for Blackbeard. He’s been the most famous pirate in the world but he’s still not happy; it’s never enough, and it is easy for anyone to tap into that self-doubt.
Q: When you have a large ensemble of actors being funny is there some competition with people trying to out do each other? Comics can certainly be competitive….
TW: There’s not really a hierarchy but people have very different delivery styles. Joel Fry [Frenchie] is really brilliant and being dry. I’m more of a ham, hamming it up.
Rhys is a blend of the two. I tried my hardest to take it seriously and try not to be funny too much. There was an amazing dynamic, having all these different people and incredible dramatic actors like Rory Kinnear [Badminton] and Con O’Neill [Izzy Hands] and Ewen Bremmer [Buttons] who can do both. Some people who haven’t done comedy wonder what to do and our advice is always, ‘Don’t try to be funny.’ When the comic actors are doing the comedic stuff you could see the dramatic actors going, ‘How am I going to do that?’ And then you see the drama guys really pull it out and blow everyone away with their acting and a lot of the comedians are like, ‘I could never do that!’ So it’s great having these two camps working together, and then with people who could do both.
Q: How did the improvisation work with such a diverse group of actors?
TW: There wasn’t a lot of it. Only a handful of us were trusted to do it, I suppose. Also, we didn’t really have a schedule for it. We were hauling ass the whole time.
Whenever it made sense to try and do some improvising it was good, but the scripts were really tight and made sense and were really well thought-out. All the story beats were there. Often, I feel that improvising is only really helpful if you’re trying to figure something out. It’s very rare that incredible things come out of improvising. But Rhys is really good at it, and I think I’m good at it. We were the two who did most of it. Also, I was one of the bosses, so I was able to!
Q: The sets were impressive. Do you have any favourites?
TW: I loved the French ship with the giant party, and full credit to the dressers and art department for that; the attention to detail was amazing. But my favourite set was the ship, the Revenge. The whole thing moved, and it really came alive. And behind us we had the huge screens with the ocean and rolling waves. Some people would get on the boat for the first time and start to feel seasick. You really felt like you were at sea. We had wind and the sound of the boat creaking. It was wonderful whenever I stepped onto that ship.
Q: Did you get to do much on location as well?
TW: A couple of times; some of them I was directing. We went out to the beach at Malibu in one of the later episodes. It was brilliant to get outside when you’re acting. With the studio you’d get in when it’s dark and leave when it’s dark.
Q: What were some of your favourite scenes from the show?
TW: I would say my favourite scenes were with Rhys. It was fun with him because we’d bounce off each other and throw each other ideas. We can read each other really well and can riff backwards and forwards with a lot of ease. He’s one of the best improvisers that I know. The dramatic scenes were really good, and we’d really support each other.
Q: Do you have any nautical skills yourself; could you hoist a mainsail?
TW: I can row a boat and I’m good at kayaking. But I’m not a sailor. I went on a few sailing trips as a kid, but I didn’t pay much attention. There were better things to do. I couldn’t tell you any of the parts of a boat or how to coil a rope. If you were to do it on a boat at sea it would be brutal. We’d probably still be shooting. Being on the stage but managing to make it look and feel real was a great help.
Stream “Our Flag Means Death” only on HBO GO.
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